Virtual Reality in the Courtroom

In this episode of The Reminger Report on Emerging Technologies, Zachary Pyers and Logan Speyer examine the growing role of virtual reality in judicial proceedings. From immersive accident reconstructions to remote site inspections, VR technology is reshaping how judges and juries evaluate evidence. 

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Transcript

REMINGER REPORT PODCAST ON EMERGING TECHNOLOGIES

Logan D. Speyer

ZBP      Zachary B. Pyers, Esq.

LDS      Logan D. Speyer, Esq.

 | ZBP | Welcome to the latest episode of the Reminger Report Podcast on Emerging Technologies.  I’m joined today with one of my associates, Logan Speyer, and we’re going to be talking about virtual reality in the courtroom.  Now I’m sure when we talk about this, it’s going to be slightly different than some of the virtual reality that some of our listeners may have been exposed to or used to.  At least I will tell you that my virtual reality experience has been limited so far to playing video games that my kids try to make me look like a fool playing in our living room, and so as we dive into the use of virtual reality in the courtrooms, I’m really happy to talk about this and get our heads wrapped around this.  So Logan, thanks for being here and if you would, just from a 10,000 foot overview, walk us through what’s going on with courts and how some of them are using or looking at the use of virtual reality.
| LDS | Absolutely.  Thanks for having me.  And it’s funny because you mentioned the video games aspect of it and that’s basically how it’s being used on jurors.  They’re putting on the virtual reality headset just as you would if you were playing video games and that’s allowing the judges and these attorneys to take a juror to a site that they may have not been able to originally, whether that’s a site visit that’s far away or it would be expensive to bring everybody there, or if they’re trying to maybe reconstruct an accident.  Instead of just showing photographs of the accident or where it took place, they can actually put the jurors in there and let the jurors go through exactly what the plaintiff went through at impact, which is significantly more involved than just showing them photos of the scene.
| ZBP | Now in prior cases and in prior scenarios, I remember a case years and years ago that one of my partners, it was probably close to a decade now ago, that one of my partners and I were working on, and it was a bad accident case with a dump truck vs. a bicycle.  And I remember that we had an accident reconstructionist, an expert, reconstruct it and then provide it to us in an animated form, and so we were able to use the animation and display it on a television or through a projector and kind of walk through the animation.  So what you’re suggesting is taking this even one step further then, where jurors are not just observing it like they would see a picture or an animation.  They’re actually stepping into the virtual reality where they would be able to experience it as if they were actually in the surroundings.
| LDS | Absolutely, and experience it in real time instead of just a standstill photograph.
| ZBP | Got it.  Now I know there’s been, I mean, so about this discussion, let’s talk because I know there’s been a couple articles written about this topic over the last few years.  Walk me through your thoughts.  Is virtual reality becoming the future of the courtroom?
| LDS | I think it is and you’ll see, we’ll talk about it a little bit later.  There’s an article from the Oklahoma Bar Association from about 2021, and even then they were discussing in that how other countries have started to use, had begun starting to use virtual reality, and it had given an example about how they were reconstructing the Nurenberg trials and reconstructing all of the gas chambers and stuff like that overseas.  And then it got used for the first time, December 14, 2024 in the United States in a criminal matter in a state case down in Florida, and that is kind of where a lot of the traction’s been gaining now that judges have actually done these virtual reality headsets and used them in real proceedings.
| ZBP | So tell us about that recent one back in 2024.  Walk us through, explain to me, how did the judge do it, what were they thinking, how did it play out, what was the feedback afterwards, those type of things.
| LDS | Absolutely.  So now the defendant in this case was charged with aggravated assault at a wedding.  So basically the judge, Judge Siegel with the Broward County Circuit, he actually put on the Oculus Quest 2 virtual reality headset.  He was able to experience the defense expert’s recreation of the defendant’s perspective, so he was able to make a better determination of reasonableness as it related to self-defense.
| ZBP | Got it.  So in that case, it sounds like the judge was the only one who was actually utilizing the virtual reality headset.
| LDS | Yes.
| ZBP | Okay.  Now let’s talk about, so obviously we’ve got some historical context, at least from an international version, that it’s being utilized by some international courts or bodies and then we’ve got the situation here in Florida in a criminal capacity, so as we look at this issue or this concept potentially moving forward, again 10,000 foot overview, what do you see as some of the big benefits to the utilization of virtual reality in our court system?
| LDS | I think a major benefit is that this technology is becoming more and more accessible to everybody so as it becomes more accessible, this way of doing things should become cheaper and faster and more efficient for everybody.  And another big benefit that’s highly debated is cost.  How much is it going to cost to take all of these jurors all the way out to a site inspection?  How much is it going to cost to completely reconstruct this accident and take jurors there when we can put it all inside of a headset?
| ZBP | I remember years and years ago when I, this was at the beginning of my legal career.  I remember the first case that I tried was a small claims court case, and it hinged largely on the setup of an intersection, and I remember the first thing that I did after reading the reports was to drive to the intersection and to see exactly what it looked like including was there a straight lane, was there a right-turn only lane, was there a left turn lane at this intersection, it was a stop sign, or was it simply just a stop sign.  And to try to make a determination as to what it looked like because I thought it was super important for me to have an understanding of what the area looked lie, and I know that I did my best.  It was a small claims trial, right, so it’s not a lot of money at stake.  I took tons of photographs because it was super important for our claims to show how this thing was structured.  And I think the benefits that would have potentially existed if I would have been able to use a video or an app to shoot a video of it in virtual reality and then provide that to the judge and obviously the participants at the trial to show them what it looked like.  Because otherwise I’m taking photographs which are helpful and I can get somebody to testify that they’re true and accurate copies of the setup of what the intersection looked like at the time of the accident, but it still is leaving something which is left to me as the lawyer to provide that kind of authenticity and to describe and explain through witness testimony how the setup of the intersection actually worked.  But I think what you’re describing is that we’re not even going to necessarily need those type of descriptive testimony if we can get and utilize this virtual reality.  And I think the other thing, and I love this point that you made, is that in my small claims trial, it was not feasible for me to request the judge to go out to the site and look at it.  The magistrate in municipal court here in Franklin County, Ohio is not going to have the time or the capacity to say yes, let’s go out there and take an hour and a half or two hours to look at this intersection, so I totally understand it.
| LDS | And along those same lines, a lot of the times, by the time that we’re able to go get photographs of the scene, it’s been a long time since the accident has occurred and you’re basically stuck with the photos that you were able to get whereas with the virtual reality, you can always change and then the sides can agree and stipulate that yeah, this is exactly how it was at that time.
| ZBP | Now what do you see as some of the challenges that are coming up with its utilization?  I mean, are there, do you see or are you predicting or do you see that people are pushing back on this concept?
| LDS | I think that the number one pushback is coming down to the cost.  Just in the Oklahoma Bar article, it talks about how the cost for a digitalized recreation of a scene is generally going to run you over six figures.  So in some cases it may be cost effective to do that, but there’s going to be a lot of cases, especially more minor cases, where it’s not going to be more cost effective.  They talk about how you’re going to have to prepare all of those virtual reality experts to testify and they’re going to have to be able to do that.  They’re going to have to be able to be cross-examined so it’s going to be a long process.  It's not necessarily just, well let’s have somebody create a reconstruction of the event and go from there.  There’s still a lot of vetting that has to be done.
| ZBP | Do you see the cost, I mean you referenced the article and the costs associated with it.  Now I know it’s an older article.  Do you see or do you anticipate that the costs will come down eventually to a more reasonable level as this technology just becomes more prevalent?  I mean, because I know that historically speaking, at least with a lot of technology, right, TVs is one of the things that we always joke about, is the size of the TV you can get for $500 now compared to the first TV.  The first flat panel my wife and I bought together when we were married back in 2007, I mean it was very small and it was $500 and I remember thinking we had spent a fortune for this beautiful TV and now it's so small that, I mean we don’t have it anymore, but it would have been so small, people wouldn’t even have put it in their kitchen, it was so small.  So do you see that playing out here where we start to see the lower cost or do you anticipate that it’s probably going to stay high for a while because the technology is not necessarily widely adopted yet?
| LDS | I mean, I see it getting more cost effective as it gets more widely adopted, and I think you’re starting to see that.  I think it is becoming a household item.  When you have teenagers and people in their 20s who are getting these new game systems, a lot of times it’s virtual reality systems.  So I think we are on that direction but the articles talk about, too, it’s all on the spectrum.  If you’re going to want these people to come in and make a reconstruction that looks like it’s from Hollywood, it’s going to cost you a lot of money regardless and I think that’s going to probably be the same in five to ten years.
| ZBP | What about, do you see or have you seen any other predictions coming from experts or others in the industry as to where they think this might go?
| LDS | Only in the sense of how the articles talk about how they think there’s going to be an increase in people that are basically certified as virtual reality and 3D experts.
| ZBP | That’s interesting because honestly I don’t know that I’ve encountered one yet.
| LDS | Right.
| ZBP | Well, Logan, I appreciate you taking the time today to discuss this issue with me.  I’m certainly very curious to see how this plays out into the future to see how virtual reality may be implemented first at trials, then I anticipate we’ll see it at mediations and we may see it at preliminary injunction hearings and other sort of hearings as the technology becomes more and more available.
| LDS | And it’s funny, just real quick, a lot of people would always talk about the dream is for video games to take us to a spot where we’re actually getting into the game.  This is, we’re getting there with this virtual reality.
| ZBP | Yes.  That’s very probably accurate.  Well, Logan, I appreciate you taking the time today to speak with us and I’ll look forward to the future and hopefully will have you back shortly to give us an update as to how we see these further implementations.
| LDS | Absolutely.  Thank you for having me.